mid-end HP 8390 vs. Fuji Scanners?

[i***@gmail.com]

I am looking at purchasing a scanner that can do 25-50 ppm (50-100 ipm)
at 200dpi for plain OCR purposes. Most of my input will be just
ordinary paper, sometimes thinner journal paper. Nothing else, like
business cards, for example. I would love a 100 page feeder, but I
guess if need be, could live with a 50 page feeder. I will do a lot of
scanning, though, exceeding the posted duty cycle figures.

The HP 8390 costs around $1,100 at newegg, but someone told me that it
is pretty unreliable---both in terms of its ability to cleanly suck in
paper and in its mechanical reliability, and that the Fujitsu scanners
are the market leaders and more reliable (more straight-through paper
path and Ultrasonic detection). Alas, there competitive model [5530]
is more than twice the price.

If you use any of the HP scanners, can you please let me know how
reliable they are?

sincerely,

/iaw

PS: The HP 8350 seems similar, just a bit slower.

[Danny]

Hi /iaw,

That's an attractive price for the8390 for the specs listed on their
website. But, some things to note:

1. footprint- the 8390 would take up a much larger area on your desktop
than either the Fujitsu fi-5530c (47ppm/94ipm) or the fi-5120C
(25ppm/50ipm)

2. the Fujitsu models have the latest technology standard for ensuring
double feed's are detected. Ultrasonic DFD (double feed detection). In
my opinion, fast ADF's are meaningless if a few pages pull through the
ADF stuck together. If that happens with the Fujitsu models, you'll
know right away because the scanner would stop and alert you that a
double feed occured- I'm not sure about the HP because their
documentation looks like it was written by a marketing specialist
rather than an engineer or even someone with some technical knowlege of
their hardware. The verbage appears like the typical marketing
rhetoric. *the fi-5120C and fi-5530C both have ultrasonic and/or length
check available*

3. autoswitching backgrounds on the FJ models allow the VRS to
autocrop & deskew to the actual diemensions of the paper. cheaper
models by other manufacturers will either have only white available and
just detect the length and assume the width using ISO standard page
sizes or they'll only have a fixed black background and make the user
manually attach another white backing if they want to change- (like the
Kodak i1200/1300 series) The FJ models use a CCD which has a mechanism
inside that mechanically will switch upon starting a batch.

4. Digital annotation and physical endorser/imprinter options for the
FJ models. HP- I'm not sure. their inside sales didn't know the answer
to this question but from the appearace of the ADF, it doesn't appear
possible to attach a seperate imprinter anywhere. This feature is
useful for anything from digitally marking the images with things like
datestamp , timestamp, scanner operator username, or any custom
markings for forms processing. Forms processing is the fastest way to
change the old way of thinking with document imaging- archival /
expense to a much better ROI / business workflow enhancement such as
what the IRS uses.

I can elaborate on anything listed above or anthing else you may have a
question about... just let me know if there's a specific question you
have about the scanners. I hate to say it but this appears to be a case
of getting what you pay for. Straight throu ADF's typically handle a
wider range of documents than U-shaped ADF's. I'd be happy to show you
a live demo realtime using a webcam anytime.

Hope this helps....

Danny Ha

Post by i***@gmail.com
I am looking at purchasing a scanner that can do 25-50 ppm (50-100 ipm)
at 200dpi for plain OCR purposes. Most of my input will be just
ordinary paper, sometimes thinner journal paper. Nothing else, like
business cards, for example. I would love a 100 page feeder, but I
guess if need be, could live with a 50 page feeder. I will do a lot of
scanning, though, exceeding the posted duty cycle figures.
The HP 8390 costs around $1,100 at newegg, but someone told me that it
is pretty unreliable---both in terms of its ability to cleanly suck in
paper and in its mechanical reliability, and that the Fujitsu scanners
are the market leaders and more reliable (more straight-through paper
path and Ultrasonic detection). Alas, there competitive model [5530]
is more than twice the price.
If you use any of the HP scanners, can you please let me know how
reliable they are?
sincerely,
/iaw
PS: The HP 8350 seems similar, just a bit slower.

[i***@gmail.com]

hi danny: thanks for the advice. (sounds like you almost work for
fuji ;-) did you try both scanners vis-a-vis one another?.)

the only part for me that matters, really, is #2. I just want a
reliable paper scanner that does the ordinary task fast and quick, and
which allows me to have many pages in the paper path. for common
paper, how often does it occur that the HP 83[59]0 pulls multiple
papers through its path incorrectly? is this very rare or reasonably
common? HP printers are pretty good in pulling in only one paper at a
time through their paper paths.

the other items probably matter to other users, but not so much to
myself. desk space is not a problem, either.

regards,

/iaw

[Danny]

Hi /iaw,

Post by i***@gmail.com
hi danny: thanks for the advice. (sounds like you almost work for
fuji ;-)

I actually did work for Fujitsu for about 6 years. It's a great company
with an outstanding team in the Imaging Products Group (IPG).

Post by i***@gmail.com
did you try both scanners vis-a-vis one another?.)

Not this particular model. I did see the 7800 while in the factory in
Japan- but the overall assesment was that it wasn't seen as too big a
threat- paper handling was mediocre and image quality on the rear
camera was intermittently poor.

for common

Post by i***@gmail.com
paper, how often does it occur that the HP 83[59]0 pulls multiple
papers through its path incorrectly?

I wouldn't have this iniformation- or be able to discuss this
information.Don't get me wrong, the HP Scanners are most likely fine.
If you look at some of the usergroup's posts, they'll often be negative
reviews- however those reviews are based on the older HP product line
which was often not even an HP manufactured product- rather a common
OEM manufacturer. Don't quote me on this , but I believe the newer HP
lineup may be an inhouse built scanner. This would mean that if that's
the case, HP has made a commitment to becoming a major player in
document imaging... their future products would most likly drastically
improve.


is this very rare or reasonably

Post by i***@gmail.com
common? HP printers are pretty good in pulling in only one paper at a
time through their paper paths.

true.. but one major difference between a priter and a scanner is the
documents being fed through. Printers will have near perfect documents
everytime. Even Impact Printers for NCR paper will have tracks
(perforated edges on the forms) because of it's thin properties and
chemical coating on each sheet. Paper dust, toner, thicker docuents/
cardstock, credit cards or other embossed platic, NCR documents, etc...
all have different challenges which is difficult for any ADF to
counter. The Fujitsu lineup has one of the most reliable since they've
been pouring resorces into finding new improvements in this field.
Their managment listens to customers feedback which is a huge reason
they've excelled in recent years- it's rare for any company to be as
customer focused- especially one as large as FJ.

I don't mean to be biased... I actually owned a ScanJet scanner before
I had a Fujitsu... The HP was a MFP and I was happy with it- until I
saw a Fujitsu scanner to compare performance with. It was no contest...

Hope this helps...

Danny Ha

Post by i***@gmail.com
hi danny: thanks for the advice. (sounds like you almost work for
fuji ;-) did you try both scanners vis-a-vis one another?.)
the only part for me that matters, really, is #2. I just want a
reliable paper scanner that does the ordinary task fast and quick, and
which allows me to have many pages in the paper path. for common
paper, how often does it occur that the HP 83[59]0 pulls multiple
papers through its path incorrectly? is this very rare or reasonably
common? HP printers are pretty good in pulling in only one paper at a
time through their paper paths.
the other items probably matter to other users, but not so much to
myself. desk space is not a problem, either.
regards,
/iaw

[i***@gmail.com]

any experience with the xerox 262 scanner? it is still one third the
price of the nice similarly fast fuji 5530 scanner (and if I count in
the price of software, one-quarter), although it does lack the 5530's
100 page paper tray.

/iaw

[Danny]

Hi /iaw,

Yes, the Xerox /Visioneer Documate 262 is a Departmental rated scanner
with an attractive price and decent software suite. It comes with Kofax
VRS, Twain, and ISIS drivers like the Fujitsu product line.

Pros:
On paper the 262 is attractive- particularly the price for performance
category. For the most part, image quality is good thanks to the dual
600 dpi color CCD's (today's standard for document imaging). But, the
main feature is the speed of the ADF at 33pages/ min or 66
images/minute duplex. The DM 262 is an easy scanner to understand since
it's basically 2 CCD's on a quick ADF mechanism. The OEM designed
scanner can be found easily in other models (such as the Kodak i30/40
series).

Cons:
The DM262 only has length check available for detecting double feeds.
Document image scanners base caliber of product on the reliability of
the Speed, Quality of Images, Footprint/ size, Compatibility with
capture applications, ease of maintaining, and Paper Handling.The only
form of Double feed detection by the 262 is by 'Length Check'. If/when
the ADF multifeeds, unless you're watching every page feed through the
ADF like a hawk- double fees will slip through the ADF and result in
that file not containing the images from several pages. The speed only
increases the chances of missing important data in your scanned image
files.

Length check is a mechanical sensor which detects the size of each page
from leading edge to trailing edge. If there's a difference of 10, 15,
or up to 20mm from any 2 sheets in a batch, the scanner will alert the
software that a doublefeed has occured. If the batch contains
documents of various sizes (legal / letter mixed batches) then the
scanner would stop everytime it detected a fluctuation in page size or
severe skew- even if there wasn't a real doublefeed. The false-positive
condition makes it impossible to scan anything quickly unless you
disable the length check within the driver. The catch 22 is disabling
lengh check means there's no form of assurance that you've captured all
the pages fed through the ADF.

The CCD's only have white backgrounds to calibrate from. VRS can deskew
and autocrop documents printed on white paper scanned with this type of
configuration because the very slight difference in tint from paper
against this white background- but, not nearly as effectively as white
paper against black backgrounds. The 262 only offers white.

The 262 only has one consumable part- the seperation pad assembly.
Friction ADF scanners have 2 critical components for paper handling-
the Seperation pad assembly (to seperate the documents ensuring only 1
page feeds through at a time) and Pick Roller (the component which
actually does the pulling of the paper). Since the DM262 doesn't allow
for end user replacement of the pic roller, the life of the scanner is
limmited to the life of this part. It's like having a car without being
able to change the tires. Typical lfespan of this type of material is
100-200k pages or 1 year. (just about the same time the warranty
expires )

The Fujitsu fi-5120 and fi-5530C have ultrasonic double feed detection-
which actually detects pockets of air between 2 or more sheets. this
allows you to scan documents up to 34" in a mixed batch and still be
sure that everthing was captured. The dual CCD's on both scanners have
an internal mechanism which automatically switches the backgrounds from
white to black allowing VRS to accurately deskew and autocrop your
images to the actual size of their originals. Both also are designed
with 2 consumables: one pad assembly 100k page rating (usually about
$20) and one pic roller 200k page rating (approx $35) ensuring a long
life for your investment.

other notable features include an imprinter option is available with
both Fujitsu scanners vs. none for the DM productline.


Hope this helps~

Danny Ha

... The price

Post by i***@gmail.com
any experience with the xerox 262 scanner? it is still one third the
price of the nice similarly fast fuji 5530 scanner (and if I count in
the price of software, one-quarter), although it does lack the 5530's
100 page paper tray.
/iaw

[Danny]

Post by i***@gmail.com
any experience with the xerox 262 scanner? it is still one third the
price of the nice similarly fast fuji 5530 scanner

The DM 262 is spec'd at 33ppm/ 66ipm with letter size paper captured in
B&W. If the same documents were used for speed tests on the fi-5530C,
the ppm would be 47ppm/ 94ipm.

I believe the DM 262 is spec'd with a 50 page ADF chute- the fine print
being that the rating is based on 16 lb paper rather than the typical
20lb found in every office printer / copy machine. The Fujitsu fi-5530C

Post by i***@gmail.com
any experience with the xerox 262 scanner? it is still one third the
price of the nice similarly fast fuji 5530 scanner (and if I count in
the price of software, one-quarter), although it does lack the 5530's
100 page paper tray.
/iaw

[p***@allstarss.com]

HP is definaly for the lite-duty home user. You won't be happy with it
as time goes on. Fujitsu is a better choise and has more options to
expand with. Previous post mentioned VRS (Virtual Re-Scan) which is a
producut jointly developed by Kofax and Fujitsu. The whole idea is
that it allows you to adjust the results without having to re-scan the
document. VRS may not be part of your initial purchase, but we don't
sell any scanning solutions - even low end ones - without VRS. It is
that good!

Fujitsu support has been great for us and we rely on their scanners for
all of our production scanning needs.

Call Lou Plante at All Star - he is really tight with Fujitsu and can
get you a good deal. 860 828 2076.

Paul Pitts

Post by i***@gmail.com
I am looking at purchasing a scanner that can do 25-50 ppm (50-100 ipm)
at 200dpi for plain OCR purposes. Most of my input will be just
ordinary paper, sometimes thinner journal paper. Nothing else, like
business cards, for example. I would love a 100 page feeder, but I
guess if need be, could live with a 50 page feeder. I will do a lot of
scanning, though, exceeding the posted duty cycle figures.
The HP 8390 costs around $1,100 at newegg, but someone told me that it
is pretty unreliable---both in terms of its ability to cleanly suck in
paper and in its mechanical reliability, and that the Fujitsu scanners
are the market leaders and more reliable (more straight-through paper
path and Ultrasonic detection). Alas, there competitive model [5530]
is more than twice the price.
If you use any of the HP scanners, can you please let me know how
reliable they are?
sincerely,
/iaw
PS: The HP 8350 seems similar, just a bit slower.

[i***@gmail.com]

Thank you, gentlemen. I have by now learned from you that the HP is
not to be recommended, even though its specs look nice. so, I will
avoid it. here is a summary of what I have learned.

because my budget is around $1,000, it will be fuji 5120 vs. xerox 262.
both cost around $840 at newegg. both have kofax VRS.

the xerox 262 claims 50 sheets of *18* lbs paper (thanks for pointing
this out, folks), and a speed of 66ipm at 200dpi B&W. it comes with
Omnipage Pro 12, which probably has a value of around $300. cnet calls
it the fastest scanner, confirms the speed, and rates the scanner
highly, but they have not tested the 5120 for comparison. in fact, I
do not think that there is a good comparison review anywhere.

the fi-5120 claims 50 sheets at 20lbs paper, and claims "mono and gray
at 200dpi at 50ipm." (it can be faster at 150dpi [color], but I
presume so can the 262. moreover, this is not important for OCR.) it
comes with full adobe acrobat, but adobe's OCR is pretty lousy in
comparison. for some, this may suffice; for me it does not. it has
ultrasonic double feed detection, which the 262 does not.

so, on paper: xerox=faster+better OCR software; fuji=better paper
feeder.


the fi-5530 is out of my price range. oddly, between $800 and $2,000,
options are very limited. fuji has nothing between the 5120 and the
5530, pricewise. the xerox 272 improves on the 262 via a network
interface, I think, but is otherwise the same. the xerox 632 is a
flatbed scanner, though a very fast one with a 100 page ADF
capacity---although they are again cheating, because they now are
quoting even 16# paper. (I do not know how this translates into
standard 20# paper.)I wonder if the HP 8390 criticisms also apply to
this model.

regards,

/iaw

[Danny]

Hi /iaw,

The 272 is a 'newer' version of the 262 but with an additional
apparatus behind the scanner to allow card scanning manually. There's
not RJ45 connection on the device so you'd still need to connect to a
host pc to make the call to the scanner. Both the 262 and the 272 are
USB compliant ( I think the 262 is 1.1 and the 272 is USB 2.0
w/backward- compatibility to USB 1.1). Both also only have white
references for each CCD, don't support an endorser option, and only
have length check as their double feed detection. The only consumable
part on the 262 and 272 is the pad assembly- when the pic roller wears
out, the scanner will either have to be serviced by visioneer serivce-
or you'd have to make a cost-effective descision at that point (i.e.
buy a new scanner).

The fi-5120C by Fujitsu has:

* both USB 2.0 and Ultra SCSI (50pin HD) interfacces for flexibility in
your environement

* CCD's which have auto switching black backgrounds for superior
handling of Deskew Correction and Autocroping by the Kofax VRS 4.1
standard included.

* one ADF chute which supports anything from Embossed plasic cards
(like a credit card, insurance card, driver's license, etc... ) to thin
NCR paper up to 34" in length. The max for the 262 I think is 14".

* comes with both length detection as well as Ultrasonic DFD-the newest
technology available for accurately detecting doublefeeds.

* supports an imprinter option which allows you to physically print/
endorse the back of each page fed through the ADF up to 40 characters.
This is a seperate purchase which would easily mount the scanner. End
user installable

* end user replaceable consumables include both the Seperation Pad
Assembly (100k page rating/ msrp: approx $20) and the Pick Roller (200k
page rating/ msrp: approx $35). This allows you to continue using your
scanner well past the life of the rollers... Similar concept to
changing your tires on your car when the tread has worn down...

I'll keep this comparison list short and stop with this for now. Let
me know if you need more details on anyone of them or others. The
hardware comparison if you put the 2 scanners side by side and look
closely, is really not much of a comparison. I may provide screenshots
of each key component and demo using both in the future...

As to the software, Adobe Acrobat 7.0 Standard lists at $300 and unlike
earlier versions of Adobe Acrobat, comes with the ABBYY Finereader OCR
engine. ABBYY is known for their OCR technology as is embedded within
most OCR applications if you look closely at the dll files. The
software and hardware is more scaleable/ flexible to your environment
and allows you to customize in the future if you need/ want to.

~hope this helps.

Danny Ha
408-996-1829

(btw- if you talk to Lou P., tell him I said 'hi'. I've worked with him
for several years while I was in both Tech Support and in Product
Managment ...he's a good guy~)

Post by i***@gmail.com
Thank you, gentlemen. I have by now learned from you that the HP is
not to be recommended, even though its specs look nice. so, I will
avoid it. here is a summary of what I have learned.
because my budget is around $1,000, it will be fuji 5120 vs. xerox 262.
both cost around $840 at newegg. both have kofax VRS.
the xerox 262 claims 50 sheets of *18* lbs paper (thanks for pointing
this out, folks), and a speed of 66ipm at 200dpi B&W. it comes with
Omnipage Pro 12, which probably has a value of around $300. cnet calls
it the fastest scanner, confirms the speed, and rates the scanner
highly, but they have not tested the 5120 for comparison. in fact, I
do not think that there is a good comparison review anywhere.
the fi-5120 claims 50 sheets at 20lbs paper, and claims "mono and gray
at 200dpi at 50ipm." (it can be faster at 150dpi [color], but I
presume so can the 262. moreover, this is not important for OCR.) it
comes with full adobe acrobat, but adobe's OCR is pretty lousy in
comparison. for some, this may suffice; for me it does not. it has
ultrasonic double feed detection, which the 262 does not.
so, on paper: xerox=faster+better OCR software; fuji=better paper
feeder.
the fi-5530 is out of my price range. oddly, between $800 and $2,000,
options are very limited. fuji has nothing between the 5120 and the
5530, pricewise. the xerox 272 improves on the 262 via a network
interface, I think, but is otherwise the same. the xerox 632 is a
flatbed scanner, though a very fast one with a 100 page ADF
capacity---although they are again cheating, because they now are
quoting even 16# paper. (I do not know how this translates into
standard 20# paper.)I wonder if the HP 8390 criticisms also apply to
this model.
regards,
/iaw