Discussion:
Vuescan IT8 target mirrored bug?
(too old to reply)
mkochsch
2003-12-26 23:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to white
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an "IT8
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a printer
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak it
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]

m
mkochsch
2003-12-29 04:08:56 UTC
Permalink
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.

~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to white
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an "IT8
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a printer
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak it
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
Jeff Randall
2003-12-29 17:38:19 UTC
Permalink
M:

I can't duplicate your problem. The VueScan "Scan task|Make IT8
target" (its internal IT8 target) shows up on screen correctly with
the white patch in the lower left corner and the black patch in the
lower right. (And always has going back to about version 7.6.15 when
it was introduced)

If you are scanning a transparancy slide IT8 target, are you sure you
don't have the slide flipped in your slide scanner? On my Nikon
LS-4000 it is emulsion side down.

You can't go wrong with a paper IT8 unless you accidently have VueScan
set to flip.

Hope this helps.

Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to white
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an "IT8
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak it
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
mkochsch
2003-12-29 17:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Jeff,
Yes it shows up on screen ok. Now print it out. What do you get?

~m
Post by Jeff Randall
I can't duplicate your problem. The VueScan "Scan task|Make IT8
target" (its internal IT8 target) shows up on screen correctly with
the white patch in the lower left corner and the black patch in the
lower right. (And always has going back to about version 7.6.15 when
it was introduced)
If you are scanning a transparancy slide IT8 target, are you sure you
don't have the slide flipped in your slide scanner? On my Nikon
LS-4000 it is emulsion side down.
You can't go wrong with a paper IT8 unless you accidently have VueScan
set to flip.
Hope this helps.
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to white
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an "IT8
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak it
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
Jeff Randall
2003-12-29 17:45:45 UTC
Permalink
m:

I just printed out VueScans internal IT8 (first step in profiling a
printer)and it prints correctly with the white patch in the lower left
and black in the right (just like it appears on screen). Are you sure
you don't have a flip image switch set in your printer driver?

Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to white
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an "IT8
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak it
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
mkochsch
2003-12-29 19:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Nope. Looks fine on screen like you said but prints backward output. The
only thing I've noticed is that the VueScan print setup is A4 and I'm using
8 1/2 X 11 paper. I could try over-riding that. The workaround is simple,
check off the "Mirror" option in VueScan, it flops it on screen but prints
it out fine. Printer is an Epson Photo series. Running W2K as OS. Changing
from Flatbed to Transparency has no effect on the output when I do the IT8
generation either. Bizzarre.

~m
Post by Jeff Randall
I just printed out VueScans internal IT8 (first step in profiling a
printer)and it prints correctly with the white patch in the lower left
and black in the right (just like it appears on screen). Are you sure
you don't have a flip image switch set in your printer driver?
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to white
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an "IT8
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak it
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
Jeff Randall
2003-12-30 02:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Sorry m. I again tried printing the VueScan internal IT8 image on
both my Epson 1160 and 1270 just to make sure. Both printers printed
the on screen image (which was oriented correctly) correctly. You
didn't mention if you checked the Epson driver setup to make sure it
was not flipping the image.

If the Epson driver is setup correctly, I'm out of ideas -- so you
might as well continue with your work around. BTW, the Vuescan
printer profile is a matrix profile that only specifies the RGB
primaries and gammas (just like a monitor profile) -- it does *NOT*
utilize a CLUT like most standard printer profiles. If you are
serious about profiling your printer, you will need to purchase a
printer profiling package. The best packages require you to utilize a
spectrophotometer, the in the ball park ones utilize your scanner as a
spectrophotometer. Or you can purchase a custom profile via a
profiling service (you print out a target and send it to them and they
use a spectrophotometer to generate a profile).

Hope this helps.

Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Nope. Looks fine on screen like you said but prints backward output. The
only thing I've noticed is that the VueScan print setup is A4 and I'm using
8 1/2 X 11 paper. I could try over-riding that. The workaround is simple,
check off the "Mirror" option in VueScan, it flops it on screen but prints
it out fine. Printer is an Epson Photo series. Running W2K as OS. Changing
from Flatbed to Transparency has no effect on the output when I do the IT8
generation either. Bizzarre.
~m
Post by Jeff Randall
I just printed out VueScans internal IT8 (first step in profiling a
printer)and it prints correctly with the white patch in the lower left
and black in the right (just like it appears on screen). Are you sure
you don't have a flip image switch set in your printer driver?
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to
white
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an
"IT8
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak
it
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
mkochsch
2003-12-31 03:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Jeff you seem to know quite a bit about the color subject. You must
work in the field. There actually isn't anywhere in my epson print driver to
flop the image, if there was it would be flopping everything I think. It
sounds like this guy (see link attached) had the same problem although I
doubt that He, Ed or Wolf knew what that actual problem was. If you scan a
flopped output and try and run the printer calibration you get a mysterious
"IT8 Error - Make sure the image is upright and the crop boxes are properly
aligned" no matter what you do, which was the error I got when I ran the
flopped image the one going from black to white (r-l) on the bottom.

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&th=e5c1abc795494108&seekm=87znnghtkw.fsf%40ann-arbor.matthias-julius.net#link1

Getting back to the rest of your post: My monitor was calibrated with a
buddy's Optical 3.7, so the monitor is fine. The scanner was than calibrated
using an actual Kodak Q60 card. When comparing the results of that
calibration epson's own profile for my 3200 looked just a tiny bit closer to
the Q60 card so I went with epson's -- they were very close. So I'm at the
point now where my scanner is calibrated and so is my monitor but my output
still looks like shit (washed out, unsaturated compared to a proof I got
back from the lab). I have photoshop5, (and adobe photo elements). Question:
should I be using the ICM function on my printer or not? Since I don't have
a working calibration for the printer it seems pointless to use the ICM.
Question: once I do achieve a calibration (profile) for my printer will
photoshop (or elements) "dumb down" my monitor as to be predictive in
regards to my output on the printer? Do I have to convert everything to CMYK
in photoshop? My understanding is that my monitor and scanner are far
superior in their ability to show me details in the photo than I can every
hope to see on the printed paper -- the gamut is what we talking about here
right?
Also, you said the vuescan IT8 is a RGB profile. What then is the point of
doing a "printer profile" with Vuescan?
As Ed's documentation shows:
http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc7.htm#topic6
It indeed seems to be attempting to use my scanner as a spetrophotometer as
you suggest. I do notice that the Vuescan IT8 generated target is much
hotter or purer way more saturated when compared to the actual Q60 target.
Do you think Vuescan would be able to calibrate my printer if I used a print
out of the actual Q60 target to generate the "printer.icc" file? I'm soooo
close...it's painful.

~m
Post by Jeff Randall
Sorry m. I again tried printing the VueScan internal IT8 image on
both my Epson 1160 and 1270 just to make sure. Both printers printed
the on screen image (which was oriented correctly) correctly. You
didn't mention if you checked the Epson driver setup to make sure it
was not flipping the image.
If the Epson driver is setup correctly, I'm out of ideas -- so you
might as well continue with your work around. BTW, the Vuescan
printer profile is a matrix profile that only specifies the RGB
primaries and gammas (just like a monitor profile) -- it does *NOT*
utilize a CLUT like most standard printer profiles. If you are
serious about profiling your printer, you will need to purchase a
printer profiling package. The best packages require you to utilize a
spectrophotometer, the in the ball park ones utilize your scanner as a
spectrophotometer. Or you can purchase a custom profile via a
profiling service (you print out a target and send it to them and they
use a spectrophotometer to generate a profile).
Hope this helps.
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Nope. Looks fine on screen like you said but prints backward output. The
only thing I've noticed is that the VueScan print setup is A4 and I'm using
8 1/2 X 11 paper. I could try over-riding that. The workaround is simple,
check off the "Mirror" option in VueScan, it flops it on screen but prints
it out fine. Printer is an Epson Photo series. Running W2K as OS. Changing
from Flatbed to Transparency has no effect on the output when I do the IT8
generation either. Bizzarre.
~m
Post by Jeff Randall
I just printed out VueScans internal IT8 (first step in profiling a
printer)and it prints correctly with the white patch in the lower left
and black in the right (just like it appears on screen). Are you sure
you don't have a flip image switch set in your printer driver?
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to
white
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an
"IT8
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak
it
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
Jeff Randall
2004-01-03 00:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by mkochsch
Getting back to the rest of your post: My monitor was calibrated
with a buddy's Optical 3.7, so the monitor is fine.

OK. I assume gamma 2.2 and D65 white point?
Post by mkochsch
The scanner was than calibrated using an actual Kodak Q60 card.
When comparing the results of that calibration Epson's own profile for
my 3200 looked just a tiny bit closer to the Q60 card so I went with
Epson's -- they were very close.

When you say calibrated, I assume you mean following the VueScan
scanner profiling proceedure?

When you say comparing, I assume you mean rescanning the Q60 target in
VueScan and applying the VueScan scanner profile to create an image of
the Q60 target and the Epson scanner profile to create an image via
the Color tab|Scanner color space & Scanner ICC profile and then
comparing side-by-side in PhotoShop to the actual Q60 target?

What were you Color tab setting when you rescanned the Q60 target?

Color balance
Black point %
White point %
Brightness
Output color space

If I didn't guess your workflow correctly, let us know exactly what
you did step-by-step.
Post by mkochsch
So I'm at the point now where my scanner is calibrated and so is my
monitor but my output still looks washed out, unsaturated compared to
a proof I got back from the lab.

I assume by 'output' you mean your printer output?

How did we jump from calibrating your 3200 scanner with a reflective
target (therefore assuming reflective scanning) to getting back proofs
from the photo lab? What media is it that you are trying to scan and
print?

Does the onscreen image either before or after you get done tweaking
the histogram B/W points, adjusting curves, saturation etc.in
PhotoShop, compare well with the photo lab output? [What I'm trying
to do here is isolate the printer as the problem.]

What inkset and paper are you using?

What printer settings did you use to create the poor quality print?

One the first screen after you hit Print in PhotoShop (Print dialog),
what Print Space did you select? Did you also select Setup and then
Properties on the Page Setup dialog?

What settings did you select on the Color Properties dialog (the
dialogs may vary depending on which printer you are using)? What
Advanced settings did you use if any?
should I be using the ICM function on my printer or not? Since I don't
have a working calibration for the printer it seems pointless to use
the ICM.

If you are using the Epson printer profile that came with your
printer, then select the appropriate Epson printer profile for your
ink/paper combo in the Print dialog Print Space Profile box. Choose
Color Controls in the Color Properties|Advanced dialog.

If using a custom printer profile, select it in the Print dialog,
Print Space Profile and choose No Color Controls in the Color
Properties|Advanced dialog.

I recommend that if you are using Epson papers and the compatable
inkset, then stick with the Epson driver -- it usually is pretty good.
Also, as you can see with the Advanced controls, you can tweak
brightness, contrast, saturation, and C, M, Y color using the Epson
driver so you should be able to achieve a faily close match between
monitor and printer output. Also remember, that when viewing any
print, the colors can look significantly different depending on the
light source.
Post by mkochsch
Question: once I do achieve a calibration (profile) for my printer will
photoshop (or elements) "dumb down" my monitor as to be predictive in
regards to my output on the printer?

Once you have your printer profiled with a custom profiled, the
application of the profile to an image is done by the Epson driver and
does not affect what you see in PhotoShop, unless you set the printer
profile as an onscreen proofing profile.
Post by mkochsch
Do I have to convert everything to CMYK in photoshop?
No, the Epson print driver does all the RGB to CMYK conversions.
Post by mkochsch
My understanding is that my monitor and scanner are far superior in
their ability to show me details in the photo than I can every hope to
see on the printed paper -- the gamut is what we talking about here
right?

Depends. The gammut of your scanner (meaning range of colors) is most
likely much greater than that of your monitor or printer. Depending
upon the ink/paper combination you are using, the gammut of the inkjet
print could be greater or lesser than you monitor.

Typical photographic reflective media only contains about 300-400 ppi
(pixels per inch) of information. I'm sure someone will argue this
point :) Slides and color negatives contain much more information,
somewhere between 2000 and 4000 ppi. Your monitor can show about 72
ppi. Even though your printer may print at 1440 or 2880 dpi (dots per
inch) it can only reproduce up to about 300-400 ppi for typical
photographic prints, hence there is typically no need to send the
printer huge files. Note, a dot of CYMK color ink is smaller than a
pixel-it can take several dots of ink to reproduce a pixel.
Post by mkochsch
Also, you said the vuescan IT8 is a RGB profile. What then is the point of
doing a "printer profile" with Vuescan?

Exactly my point. Also as mentioned above, if you are using a
compatable Epson paper and inkset combo, the Epson profiles that came
with the printer are pretty good.
Post by mkochsch
It indeed seems to be attempting to use my scanner as a
spetrophotometer as
you suggest. I do notice that the Vuescan IT8 generated target is much
hotter or purer way more saturated when compared to the actual Q60
target.

I meant this for generating a custom printer profile. Printer
profiling programs can be found for sale at www.monacosys.com ,
www.colorcal.com , www.praxisoft.com
Post by mkochsch
Do you think Vuescan would be able to calibrate my printer if I
used a print
out of the actual Q60 target to generate the "printer.icc" file? I'm
soooo close...it's painful.

Seems a bit circular don't you think?

Good luck.

Jeff Randall

mkochsch
2003-12-31 03:56:35 UTC
Permalink
BTW, switching the paper in Vuescan's page setup from A4 to Letter fixed the
flopping bug...

~m
Post by Jeff Randall
Sorry m. I again tried printing the VueScan internal IT8 image on
both my Epson 1160 and 1270 just to make sure. Both printers printed
the on screen image (which was oriented correctly) correctly. You
didn't mention if you checked the Epson driver setup to make sure it
was not flipping the image.
If the Epson driver is setup correctly, I'm out of ideas -- so you
might as well continue with your work around. BTW, the Vuescan
printer profile is a matrix profile that only specifies the RGB
primaries and gammas (just like a monitor profile) -- it does *NOT*
utilize a CLUT like most standard printer profiles. If you are
serious about profiling your printer, you will need to purchase a
printer profiling package. The best packages require you to utilize a
spectrophotometer, the in the ball park ones utilize your scanner as a
spectrophotometer. Or you can purchase a custom profile via a
profiling service (you print out a target and send it to them and they
use a spectrophotometer to generate a profile).
Hope this helps.
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Nope. Looks fine on screen like you said but prints backward output. The
only thing I've noticed is that the VueScan print setup is A4 and I'm using
8 1/2 X 11 paper. I could try over-riding that. The workaround is simple,
check off the "Mirror" option in VueScan, it flops it on screen but prints
it out fine. Printer is an Epson Photo series. Running W2K as OS. Changing
from Flatbed to Transparency has no effect on the output when I do the IT8
generation either. Bizzarre.
~m
Post by Jeff Randall
I just printed out VueScans internal IT8 (first step in profiling a
printer)and it prints correctly with the white patch in the lower left
and black in the right (just like it appears on screen). Are you sure
you don't have a flip image switch set in your printer driver?
Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
I upgrade to .71...problem still exists.
~m
Post by mkochsch
Is it me or does Vuescan print its IT8 target "mirrored" (black to
white
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
from left to right). The only way I could get Vuescan to not throw an
"IT8
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
calibration error" was to mirror the output after attempting to do a
printer
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
calibration. And when I compare it to an actual Q60 target from Kodak
it
Post by Jeff Randall
Post by mkochsch
Post by mkochsch
indeed looks flopped. Like I said is it me only who has this problem?
[version .69]
m
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